EVE Search - Sticky:[118.6] Capital Balancing

Cade Windstalker wrote:

Marranar Amatin wrote:

Basically there are two options:
1. your standard for "good evidence" is extremely high (for a game forum), so that you whole reasoning is pointless. Because unless its the most obvious bullshit it will NEVER possible to satisfy your standards, so according to your logic it would be basically impossible to argue against any nerf ever.
2. your are willfully ignoring the arguments.

Neither of these is the case, when I see someone saying "I feel that this is too high!" I simply have to ask the question "why is that" and look for any kind of supported answer, and I'm not seeing that *ever*. The best we've gotten in this thread has been people calculating application percentages on common fits, something I could have done (and have done in the past) with a spreadsheet in about half an hour given their sig radius and speed.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, it's not me you have to convince and it's not my standards you have to live up to, it's CCP's. Their standards are pretty simple, present a good evidence based argument, not one based on "I feel" or "I think" or "I want". I've been around these forums for as long as this character has been around (over 8 years at this point) and I have a pretty good idea of what passes for a good argument, and what you're presenting here isn't it:

Marranar Amatin wrote:

I already showed you a clearly negative effect. Here I will repeat it for you.
1. fighter carrier were never really used before the changes.
2. fighter carrier had more dps, more ehp, fighters that were harder to jam, fighters that were harder to kill and easier to replace than before the patch.

From this follows, we can expect carriers being TOO WEAK against large targets right now. because they were better before, but hardly used. everyone used sentries which they cant use anymore. or triage, which they also cant do anymore. The only thing that got much better is against small targets. Against large targets it was just a nerf.

And now they make them EVEN WEAKER against large targets even though they are not too strong but probably too weak. This clearly is a negative effect.

Allow me to explain why this is not an argument against CCP's changes:

First off, point one doesn't really matter, because Carriers before the changes bear very little resemblance to Carriers after the changes. Also the Capital ecosystem that Carriers are being used in bears very little resemblance to the ecosystem after the changes *because of* the Capital changes.

Your logic says that no one should be using Carriers *right now* because they're overall weaker than they were before the changes, but people very clearly are using Carriers.

It also completely ignores anything about Carriers other than tank and raw DPS, for example Sentries were used over Fighters not because they had higher DPS (even against Battleships) but because they applied that DPS instantly and Carriers could carry so many of them they would effectively never run out.

From the dev-blog that I've linked about a half dozen times now we know that CCP never intended Carriers to be the killers of large targets. That role belongs to Dreadnaughts and SuperCarriers with their Heavy Fighters, so lowering their effectiveness against large targets isn't really a big issue, except maybe in the case of something like a HAW fit Dread vs a Carrier, though that's basically a slap-fight and therefore has minimal effect on balance decisions.

I would argue that the effectiveness of Carriers against other Capitals has almost no impact on this set of balance changes, it's almost entirely about Carriers and their effectiveness against sub-capital targets. This has only been reinforced by the discussion in this thread, which has been about how Carriers have only been good against sub-capitals since the changes.

I am assuming you're talking about Capitals when you say "large targets" but if you're talking about Battleships it doesn't really matter, because of this line:

> are not too strong but probably too weak

You have no evidence for this, at all, presented anywhere. I am sorry if you feel that presenting evidence for this is too much of a burden for a forum discussion but if that's the case I wonder how you intend to convince the devs, who spend their days working up spreadsheets and testing things to see if they work, without some hard evidence of your own.